Live Event Recap: How to Lead Agile Teams During Uncertainty

We are proud to share our recent conversation with agile software quality leaders, Erika Chestnut and Vernon Richards. In our TwitterSpaces event, our leaders shared practical tips for how software quality advocates can weather the storm during a company reorg, managing shifting business requirements, and all while managing teams and software quality expectations.

Listen to our ➡️ complete recording, as well as enjoy highlights from our conversation below.


Tristan Lombard:
The topic today is how to lead agile teams during uncertainty. So we're gonna talk to y'all a little bit about how to weather the storm, whether it's during a company reorg or managing shifting business requirements and doing all of that while also managing your team's project in most importantly as well, software quality expectations. 

Vernon Richards:
Yeah. Okay. So greetings, everyone. My name is Vernon. I'm from a place called Lester in the uk, which is one of those annoying cities that is not pronounced how you think it would be when you look at how it's spelled. I've been in software testing and quality for just over 20 years now. So it feels like I've been doing this for a while. And originally started off in teams delivering testing, like, you know, interacting with the product, testing stuff, finding the bugs, reporting those things. And more lately it's been in the quality engineering and the quality coaching space, and helping teams collectively own quality own testing, get better at all those things. And even more recently than that, I, for the last few years, if you follow me on Twitter or anywhere else, you'll hear me going, talking a lot about coaching. Cause I believe those skills are so well suited to testing and help us do better jobs with testing and quality and whole team approaches to quality and that kind of thing.

Tristan Lombard:
Can you explain for anyone who's not familiar, how would you define modern agile software testing? And can it be sent up in a simple definition?

Vernon Richards:
Hmm…There are so many good definitions that would all I think make sense. For me, I think it's about doing good quality related work in whichever context you find yourself in. So whether that's an agile one or not it's about adding value to the team and doing the, and doing the best work that makes sense in that given moment. So it's a very, very context specific kind of thing…It's about how my work directly impacts the business goals of the organization that I'm in, or the goals of the team that I am a part of. 

Tristan Lombard:
And we're so glad you're here too, Erika. 

I love that. And that's powerful. And I, this is a question I was asking Vernon as well. I'm curious, your take on it. How would you and or can we define modern agile software testing in a simple definition? Vernon gave one answer, so I'm curious what yours is.

Erika Chestnut: 
…Now, you know agile software testing is not one size fits all good. And that's, I think I believe that mentality is disruptive, but if we lean into that and leverage the strategies around agile use and this is not the question you asked me, as I'm realizing as what I'm answering, but using it as a tool of, or guidance and how to drive quality..so when you ask if you can sum it up in a simple definition? I don't think it's one thing anymore.

Tristan Lombard:
…because one of the things I wanted us to unpack a little bit today, and you know, the topic today is talking about leading agile teams during uncertainty. 

And we know that from, you know, the social media and from whatever have you, from all of our friends, a lot of, you know, people, teams, especially leaders are struggling right now. They're having to make difficult, you know, decisions about their teams leading software quality to meet the business requirements. I'm for you cuz you have, you've both been in space for a while now.

How do you feel like agile software testing plays a part in how you can lead projects and teams during these types of uncertain times?

Vernon Richards:
So I think, I think what it is, I think what it's about is at least, well, I've been doing it a while, so maybe this is not as relevant as before now. But definitely when I think about what it was like when I started, it was much more of an afterthought.

Whereas now, I, I remember the first time I heard about DevOps, let's say, and I got very excited cause I was like, oh, this whole thing is about testing awesome. Like, this is, I'm good to go. So it feels like understanding what the, the, the state of the product is, is at all times central to how we work these days. Particularly if you're in a very agile team that's very collaborative and very customer focused. That was not the case when I started.

And when I started, by the way, the first thing that I, I was testing this will, this will date me quite badly, was PlayStation II games. And so you would literally build the game and go and print that thing on a master CD…and then you would send that thing off to get printed. So if any mistakes or bugs in that thing were a major problem because you couldn't just, you know, download a patch to fix it. So it had to, you know, it had to be right.

But that didn't really impact how the game was built necessarily, at least back then. It was very much, well, we've got this idea we're gonna build it. We may or may not have tested it with any customers and so on and so forth. Whereas now it seems to be much more central to what everybody on the team and depending on the business, everybody in the business is doing. So that's, I think that's the biggest difference for me personally.

Tristan Lombard:
Again, thinking a little bit about leadership and agility, especially during these types of uncertainty.

Erika Chestnut:
You know, for me, what agile testing has kind of taught me is that iterate, move forward. And it's, it's really, I've really baked in kind of that concept of let's go through a cycle, let's get touch points, let's check in whether it's on the project, whether it's one-on-one with the person and their career growth, you know, as a leader saying, how do we move these things forward? 

When I think about rolling things out, whether it's new process or a proof of concept, it's all kind of that agile, how do we iterate, how do we move forward, iterate, move forward, and just keep going through that cycle that gets buy-in that gets people excited, the gets people on board, and connected in with the changes that are coming through. 

So it's less change management feels less daunting, it feels less like Big Brother. And instead there's buy-in, there's acceptance, there's interest and engagement around it. People feel like they have a say in things. And so for me, from a leadership standpoint, leading projects, leading teams, people and quality, it's iterate and move forward.

Tristan Lombard:
I hear you. What advice do you have for a new Director of QA that just started to build their teams, was really excited about these projects, but now [with budget cuts] has less people and is expected to do the same as quality coaches?

Erika Chestnut:
Communicate and collaborate…there's nothing that you can do about that, right? You can't, you've lost the headcount or lost the team, but you still have a charter. You still have a responsibility to drive quality, but quality is driving quality is not the sole responsibility or is only, or the quality team is not only responsible for that effort. 

We are the champions of that conversation. We should be driving strategy. We should be the people that are the cheerleaders for quality and really inspiring others and helping them understand how they can lead quality for themselves. 
 

But at this point, it's not for us to be, you know, we're not gatekeepers. We don't need to say that...you can't move forward unless you have this testing done through our team. But instead we wanna give others the tools.

So when we don't have people available, that's when we would really wanna lean in on that communication and collaboration. 

How can I or the people that are available on my team support you? Whether it's product design, app engineers, mobile engineers to lead quality for yourselves. Do you need education? Do you need documentation? Do you need a better process? What can we do outside of just being in the test column? Right? That's how we've gotta start thinking beyond, we are here to just do that testing, that test column, that test step, but instead, how can we support others to think about quality and to lead quality for themselves.

Tristan Lombard:
I appreciate that. Thanks. Vernon, I'm curious for you and your teams, if you've seen any kinds of shifts recently or also as you know, for some of your clients, or if there's anything you wanted to echo off of what Erika just said.

Vernon Richards:
Yeah, I was, I was whooping in the background of, particularly around the communication part. Communication is key and that isn't just with your peers, it isn't just with your direct reports, it's also with the people that you report into as well, I guess. So it's just, it's just communication all round… you [also] need to get even more laser focused on what the business cares about and everything that you do should be aligned with that…making sure that people know what value you're adding to your team, it seems pretty relevant and pertinent.

Tristan Lombard:
And do you have any pro tips as quality coaches that you could recommend to any of our listeners around leveraging more of that asynchronous communication to continue to make sure that people are informed, right? And is there a way that Agile leadership plays into that at all?

Erika Chestnut:
Organization, every organization communicates differently. And as quality leaders, I think it's on us to identify the ways just in general as people, people want to be communicated in a way that they can hear it, that they can understand it, that they can take it in. And so it's our responsibility to understand what's the best way, you know one organization really, really, really wants the data, but why do they want that data? Is telling them that there were five bugs open this past sprint, valuable, what's behind it? What are they really trying to get at and hoping to achieve?

And working to create messaging around that and surfacing messaging in a way that people can connect with it and take it away. I'm not gonna remember five bugs two sprints ago, but I might remember the impact of that. And, and I'm able to take that forward and say, my team had this negative impact or positive impact, we should keep this up, or we should improve in this area. I can take the spirit of that conversation forward. 

So understanding how the teams communicate and what, what speaks to their hearts, what pulls on their heartstrings…as humans, and the conversation in a way that's not judgmental, but in a way that says, we're all in this together. Let's partner, let's collaborate.

Tristan Lombard:
And we talk about cross-functional collaboration, we talk about building more effective relationships with your software development teams and leaders. I'm curious for you what kind of a reality check that a new QA leader should do with themself to make sure that they are moving forward, their team and also their own goals for the company?

Vernon Richards:
What I have done in the past is try to lead teams and always try to understand what it is that my manager is on the hook for? Like, what are they, what battles are they fighting? Like, what do they need from me in order to make their lives easier? That's one thing.

Another thing…is to figure out what the business cares about or make sure that I am aligned to that. And if you've been promoted or hired from within, your relationships with your former peers are probably gonna change…and that is not easy because they may have certain expectations of you because your relationship when your peers was one way, but now you're in this leadership position, it may be a little bit different. 

And if you are, if you are hired to lead a team, I would try to avoid coming in and immediately start telling everybody what to do… because they, you know, particularly when you are new, like everyone else knows where the bodies are buried except you. 

So you need to figure…what have people tried before? What did people hate? What are their goals? And try to get your head around that. Erica talks about communication styles. That's another thing to try and figure out and bear all of those things in mind.

Tristan Lombard:
Well, you also forgot, and who buried the bodies to begin with?

Vernon Richards:
Oh, Tristan took an already dark phrase and just took it to a whole new level. But you're quite right. That's in fact, you know, jokes aside, that's a really important, you know, that's actually a good move. Like, you put the bodies there in the first place, right?

Tristan Lombard:
No, it's real…oh, sorry, Erika, please, please speak to it.

Erika Chestnut:
I was just saying facts. You cannot know who buried the body. You can be talking to the person that buried the body, and they are indeed telling you about the body, and you think they are your friend, but you need to be careful because they might bury you too.

Tristan Lombard:
Say more.

Erika Chestnut:
You don't know what you're stepping into. And new leaders, we need to listen more than we speak. And it can be hard. I can tell you, like, for me as a seasoned leader…I'm not old. I'm just seasoned… it can be hard to hear things and be like, yeah, I know what the problem is and or not….and not saying that it can be hard. You have to stop yourself. You have to listen and you have to listen to a lot of people. And there's this balance, especially as a leader, that you have to play off. I'm listening and I'm learning, while also getting pushed from your manager and your manager's manager to take action on things that they hired you for. 

And so you have to find that balance….because you're looking for where the risks are, you're looking for where the gaps are, where the needs are and how…then identifying how you can support, if it's resources, if it's strategy, if it's process… I do a listening tour and I call it, “What the bug?” And I ask, you know, I ask questions in the buckets of process people and technology. And they shift for some slightly, depending on, you know, if I'm at the executive level, if I'm at the individual contributor.

But for the most part, I would say 75% of the questions are the same, or at least of the same vein, because I'm trying to understand where the organization believes their problems are, and then what, what are they looking at to say this is not right. What is the executive team, you know, concerned about, about quality? What are the individual contributors concerned about related to quality? And how are we responding to it? 

Tristan Lombard:
It makes me think a little bit about that James Baldwin quote, “I can't believe what you say because I see what you do.” And I feel like that's hard right now too, right? Like maybe an organization has just laid off, I don't know, 7% is the new fancy number for big tech, so let's use that. They've laid off 7%, right? Companies have already been fighting beforehand leading up to kind of you know, a layoff.

Is there a practice that either of you lead with any of your clients around resetting… with leadership, whether it's communication expectations or if there's anything you can share there to help leaders?

Erika Chestnut:
I love starting with communication. I've worked with a number of teams where I run DISC workshops. Everything starts with communication. You can't develop relationships without effective communication. You can't build new things without effective communication. If people are speaking to each other and they're speaking past each other or not in a way that's supportive of each other, your teams are not gonna be high functioning…

As, companies are laying off. I think they need to work to bring the teams, their leadership teams together…it's an [financial] investment that companies should make, which is, let me bring my team together and work on team building…it's hard at this point to trust. And without that, you're not gonna, teams aren't gonna be able to deliver innovation. They don't want to. They're so worried about their jobs and the next layoff that we can't be effective innovators and, and leaders and, you know, really drive forward because we don't trust the company.

Tristan Lombard:
And I think that's a really important segue over there too. I know that for one of the reasons why I was so excited to have you all on and talk about this topic, it's not just timely. I think it's also important too, a lot of leaders right now, they are, you know, investing so much in their teams. And I think we sometimes forget the importance as leaders to also invest in ourselves professionally and personally, and also be around others like us.

So many, I've talked to so many, you know, solo testers, to managers that have limited resources and people, and they kind of feel alone…I was reading a stat from the Workforce Institute at UKG the other day, and it was saying that of the, those interviewing, I think it was like three K respondent, the study found 69% of people, their managers had a greater impact on their mental health which was on par with impact of their partner and more than a doctor at 51%, or even a therapist at 41%. 

And so especially for managers, how are you getting back in there and checking yourself, investing in you…to make sure your teams are doing okay?.. Having that agile software testing spirit, like you were both talking about, it's also important to see all aspects of quality. And that includes the people and the leaders, the decision makers, and the users using your product.

And I do think that you have to infuse some celebration even in hard times. I know for some people it feels like, “What if I'm tone deaf, right?” We just laid people off. How do I show up and celebrate some of our wins, right? And I hear this a lot from some of my friends and QA managers and it's like, no, you've got to because people are looking for wins right now…What advice would you both give to that leader leading teams and experiencing layoffs on their teams right now? What would you say to them right now if you could?

Erika Chestnut:

It's okay to share that you don't have it all put together. It's okay to show up as human first, that you have fears and anxiety and that you are just like the person next to you, whether they, that person reports to you, whether that person is your peer or your leader. We are all humans in this. We start there.
 

We all have emotions, we all deal with it. You do not need to be a robot. You do not need to put on, you know, that strong facade to show up and be transparent. It doesn't mean that you're gonna say, this is what, you know, I heard in the executive meeting that you guys are not invited to, and I'm not supposed to share at this time, but it does mean that you can say, I recognize that there are concerns. Here's how…I want to or can support you.

Yes. I think that there's an opportunity to begin to look outward because you're aware that things are moving in the direction you know of, of layoffs. If you firmly know that you help people, it doesn't mean you have to say the exact right thing, but start with the human. 

How would you want to be supported? How, how do you feel or would feel in that situation? And how can you support others? So show up first as the human works through it from a relationship standpoint. Be, you know, be supportive of the business. Don't…throw the business under, under the table or, or put them at risk, but show up as human. And that's okay for you to show that and be that way. Just remember you are North Star as well as supporting the business. You are a person first. You're a human first.

Tristan Lombard:
I love that….And I think that's something else for any of our listeners live and or to this recording you know, we don't always get the management leadership motivation that we, we need and deserve…

Vernon, what is advice that you would give to that, that QA manager right now that feels downtrodden, that is having a hard time right now, that knows you need to motivate, knows that there's business requirements that need to be met?

Vernon Richards:
Yeah, that was very good advice from Erika.

I would build on that by saying you are going to need some support. So you need to make sure that you have support in place, either from peers at your organization or from peers from outside the organization. I think that's the thing that's gonna enable you to get through it because it is tough. You're gonna have a team of people who are gonna be looking to you for strength and to potentially have all the answers.

 

And if you don't have them, you know that if you don't have the answers, like Erika was saying, because you are human, that might, you might feel like you are letting them down. And so get the support that you need to get through that because you aren't letting them down. You are allowed to be human and you are deserving of support.

And so depending on who's in the team, you know, when, when you are showing that vulnerability, you know, there are different ways to do that. Be mindful of the fact that you being vulnerable could freak out some of the more junior members in the team potentially, just as an example. But that's not to say you shouldn't show that vulnerability. Just be aware of, of how you are doing it and, and show your human side, but above, above all else, make sure that you, you have your support in place because the job is hard at the best of times. And this isn't the best of times.

Tristan Lombard:
I appreciate you all. And I have to say for everyone if you can make it out to Agile TD USA in Chicago coming up at the end of May, early bird tickets will still be on sale for you until the end of this month. Invest in you and remember that we have discounted tickets. Sorry, that's my, I had to do [and] that's my marketing head off. I know it's late, you're part of the world Vernon. I'm curious if you both are open for some very quick rapid fire questions. Are you both ready?

Erika Chestnut:
Let's go.

Tristan Lombard:
Okay. All right. Erika, you first, what's the number one song that you're listening to right now and why?

Erika Chestnut:
It's gonna be “Big” by Pastor Mike Jr.…it's all the energy I have around what I want for my life…I'm gonna have big blessings…all of it… it's about my life being more than what my little brain says it will be. But instead everything that God has prepared for me and it's definitely gotta be big.

Tristan Lombard:
I love that so much. And Vernon…same question, number one song that you're listening to right now, and why? 

Vernon Richards:
A song I've been listening to a lot lately is a kind of an older song. It's called, “We Gonna Make It,” by Jadakiss and Styles. And just like the title says we're gonna make it, …I've been listening to that a lot over the last…three months. Parental Advisory explicit lyrics, by the way, on that one…

Tristan Lombard:
Love it. What has been the best recent agile software testing blog that you've read and why?

Vernon Richards:
Oh my God. I would say it's not so much about explicitly testing, but go and read anything that John Cutler writes…he's very good at explaining stuff that teams and organizations do.

Tristan Lombard:
Love it. Erika, same question.

Erika Chestnut:
Unfortunately, my brain struggles with blogs. Like, I just, it's like shopping at the sales rack. I wanna do it, but it's just hard…But there's a lot of great blogs out there… I will mention a recent book that I read, which was “The Complete Software Tester” by Kristin Jackvony…And I loved it. It was a great read…I think it's a great resource for people that are interested in quality and it's just… a well-rounded conversation around quality. I really liked it.

Tristan Lombard:
I'm here for all of that…Also shout out to anyone in our DevOps leadership book club crew. We're a small group and meet monthly. It's super fun. You all can vote for whatever books you want, and then we discuss them for an hour. So anyone is more than welcome to come. So lastly, I wanna say parting words, y'all for any of these leaders right now that are, you know, feeling extra challenged right now in these uncertain times. Any closing words for them, Vernon?

Vernon:

I would say get the support that you need and at the same time, trust your instincts. Look out for your team and they will look out for you and look out for your boss and they will look out for you. 

Tristan Lombard:
I love that. Erika, closing words?

Erika Chestnut:

Relationships, build them and leverage them. Build relationships with the people around you, above you, next to you and below you. And then leverage them. Don't be ashamed of that. If you've built an authentic relationship, they will want to support you. They will want to help you build authentic relationships and then leverage them.

Tristan Lombard:
I think that is so clutch. And I think a lot of people too remember that it's so easy to shoot someone, a DM, so easy to text someone. A lot of people. I always, one of the number pieces of advice I always give people is never make decisions out of fear. Always make decisions out of the belief that it will better your life and your loved ones around you, and that includes you too.

So if you're ever scared to shoot someone a DM, don't be, that's fear-based. Do it out of love. And I will say as we wrap up here, y'all definitely, if you can make it to AgileTD USA, it’s genuinely the best software testing conference I've ever been to. The community is like no other. You get to meet these amazing speakers live and also get to meet with others.

It's also about investing in you. So take a look…And we're gonna be doing more of these Twitter spaces with some of my favorite…agile software testing leaders that you know and love. So follow AgileTDZone for updates.

Thank you, Vernon. Thank you Erika. You’re international treasures. Bye, y’all.
 

➡️ Listen to the recording of the Twitter Space live event.

________________________________

Be sure to follow AgileTDZone on LinkedIn and Twitter for more conversations with our AgileTDUSA speakers.

Want to learn more about our pricing and packages, and how you can attend Erika and Vernon’s talks in-person? Check out our AgileTD USA 2023 ticket options.


About Our Speakers 

Fun. Quirky. Clever. Sassy. Erika’s leadership style begins and ends with relationships. With over 20 years of experience in the tech industry - from application development to spinning up new quality departments - Erika has learned to lead with grace, patience and a little bit of snarky humor. She started her career as an application developer, gaining a deep understanding of business processes, SDLC and the role quality plays in achieving business goals. She is an empathetic servant leader whose mission is to help people lead from a more compassionate space to build teams that are engaged, empowered and excited.

Vernon Richards is a Quality Coach & Senior Quality Engineer that helps orgs, teams & individuals understand the relationship between quality & testing to help them build better products & deliver more effective services. By day he’s a Senior Quality Engineer in health tech night I run Abode of Quality. Using his coaching skills in the quality & testing space, he believes the most effective way to serve the business is to help teams & individuals gain new perspectives about themselves and their teammates.